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Big - Bang motor

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  • Hronični Motociklopata, 5655 postova
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vibracije? :zbunjen::staa: imao sam Hondu VFR 750 sa V4 agregatom a to je isto to, i veuj mi NEMA vibracija, ima snage na niskim obrtajima i vuce linearno od pocetka do kraja, nema one rupe pa kad naglo povuce :takoje: najbolja masina koju sam ikada vozio :aha:

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  • Drug član, 1318 postova
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vibracije? :zbunjen::staa: imao sam Hondu VFR 750 sa V4 agregatom a to je isto to, i veuj mi NEMA vibracija, ima snage na niskim obrtajima i vuce linearno od pocetka do kraja, nema one rupe pa kad naglo povuce :takoje: najbolja masina koju sam ikada vozio :aha:

 

Drugim recima dosadna....

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  • Ne silazi, 5403 postova
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vibracije? :zbunjen::staa: imao sam Hondu VFR 750 sa V4 agregatom a to je isto to, i veuj mi NEMA vibracija, ima snage na niskim obrtajima i vuce linearno od pocetka do kraja, nema one rupe pa kad naglo povuce :takoje: najbolja masina koju sam ikada vozio :aha:

Pa sad...ne znam bas koliko slicnosti imaju V4 i redni4 agregat,pa neka je Big Bang puta 5.

 

Jel' zbog krize ili zbog toga sto se za te pare moze naci i bolja voznja,ili jos gore da taj Bang nije uopste odusevio (mozda malo zvuk), tek, nova R1 jos uvek je u senci starije sestre koja je zaista bila revolucionarna,da ne kazem zla i naopaka.Onakva kakav bi trebalo da bude sportski bike...znaci ne za svakoga.

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  • Zainteresovan, 617 postova
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Yamaha nema Big-Bang agregat....samo palenje je slicno big-bangu a vibracije su vece nego na normalnom-rednom 4 cilindara agregatu (yamaha je ubacila dodatnu osovinu za balans)

Jedina prednost je bolje rasporedjeni obrtni momenat i raspored palenja (sto je prvenstveno na trkama bitno i to najvise zbog trajnosti guma i gripa)

druge prednosti nema...niti vise konjske snage ni veci obrtni momenat. Suskalo se da je rossi vozio na gp-u pravi big bang motor.....

a 90-ih godina su 500ccm dvotaktni na trkama imali "prave" big-bang agregate

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  • Hronični Motociklopata, 5655 postova
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vibracije? :zbunjen::staa: imao sam Hondu VFR 750 sa V4 agregatom a to je isto to, i veuj mi NEMA vibracija, ima snage na niskim obrtajima i vuce linearno od pocetka do kraja, nema one rupe pa kad naglo povuce :takoje: najbolja masina koju sam ikada vozio :aha:

 

Drugim recima dosadna....

trecim recima, malo obrati paznju kako se prave motori u zadnjih 20 godina i u kom smeru ide evolucija i skontaces da svi teze da postignu bas to sto imaju V masine a ne redni 4 cilindra bas zbog te rupe u razvijanju snage kada pocne naglo da nabija obrtaje i snagu, BAS zbog toga je DUCATI 851 sp2 1990. godine u Superbike sampionatu masakrirao japansku konkuranciju koja je imala redne cetvorocilindrase, jer nisu mogli da kontrolisu motore u krivinama i tu je Ducati sa svojim linearnim razvijanjem snage i obrtnim momentom dosao do izrazaja...zato i u danasnjem moto gp su sve V masine, jedino Yamaha ima taj svoj big bang (crossplane camshaft) M1 koji u stvari simulira rad V masine na rednoj masini.

:nanana::zdravo:

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  • Zainteresovan, 537 postova
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evo nešto što sam napisao na jednom drugom forumu u raspravi BB vs. SCR motor

 

Odg: Big bang i slicni sistemi paljenja

« Odgovori #31 : 19. Siječanj 2007, 11:48:27

 

Osjećam potrebu da se uključim u ovu raspravu iako neznam gdje će završiti .

Naime puno toga ste svi vi ovdje napisali , ima toga točnog i pogrešnog , ali glavna poanta u razlici big bang i screamer motora je u ispoljavanju snage na račun redosljeda paljenja .

Za dotične moduse rada u kontekstu koji vi želite razjasniti potreban je 4 cilindrični motor što ne znači da se ne mogu iskoristiti i kod 2 ili 3 cilindričnih motora .

Najjednostavnije objašnjenje je da screamer motori ispoljavaju snagu u kontinuitetu i učinkovitiji su kod visokih obrtaja motora što ima za posljedicu nagli porast snage kod prelaska određenog broja obrtaja motora i dolazi do "ispucavanja" pa je potrebno veliko iskustvo i znanje za vladanje tim motorom (govorimo o natjecateljskim motorima) , a motor je slabije učinkovit na sporijim i zavojitijim stazama .

Big-bang motor radi "pulsirajuće" tj. snagu oslobađa blaže i linearnije bez velikih "lomova" i ispucavanja i na taj način olakšava iskorištenje snage , a time i poboljšava upravljivost i mirnoću motora na stazama koje zahtjevaju "više manevra".

Inače potreba za SCREAMER i BIG BANG konfiguracijom najviše je do izražaja došla u klasi GP 500 kada su dvotaktni motori došli do limita upravljivosti zbog preživčang ispoljavanja snage u tada standardnim V4 konfiguracijama , pa su konstruktori uvodili BB agregate .

Svi oni napajani su bili preko rasplinjača , a razliku je činila jedino radilica čija su koljena bila pod različitim kutevima ovisno dali je motor scr. ili bb. konfiguracije i paljenje koje je bilo podešeno konfiguraciji scr ili bb .

U zadnjim sezonama GP500 skoro svi su prešli na BB motora , jedni od zadnjih 500 screamera bile su Honde M.Doohana(čovjek je imao cojones voziti screamer on the edge i zato je sve ostale ostavljao za pola kruga) i Suzuki K.Schwanza koji je uvijek bio ili drugi ili u gipsu .Nemojte me držati za riječ da su samo njih dvojca vozili scr, ali oni su očiti primjeri šzo je bio scr naspram bb- u 2T motorima.

Kod četverotaktnih motora ne možemo govoriti o tipičnom BB ili scr motoru jer se radni takt odvija u jednom cilindru sa svakim drugim okretajem radilice pa je moguće također kombinirati razne rasporede radnih taktova , ali za ono što nazivate bb kod 4T motora primjereniji je naziv TWIN PULSE , a za ostalo može se izraditi puno varijanti ,što ovisi o međusobnom kutu cilindara kod V motora , kutevima između koljena radilice i rasporeda paljenja kod V,BOXER ili Rednih motora.

Svaki tuner i razvojni sektor u motosportu ima svoju "malu tajnu".

Današnji svi komecijalni motori R4 konfiguracije još uvijek koriste stari oprobani sistem 1-3-4-2 jer je to najjeftinije i najlakše proizvesti i servisirati .

Kod V2,R2 i R3 motora situacija je drukčija i tu se igra sa kutevima cilindara i koljena radilice da bi se povećala snaga , poboljšala efikasnost ili smirile vibracije (povećala udobnost i trajnost).

Ufffffff krenuo sam na novu temu , neću o tome niti započinjati .

Ah da , ako si nemožete u glavi vizualizirati 3D projekciju svih mogućih kombinacija rada motora , teško će vam ova tema sjesti .

Pozdrav svima M900

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  • Zainteresovan, 719 postova
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On 2/5/2012 at 4:26 PM, mcm-racing said:

Yamaha nema Big-Bang agregat...

 

...a ovo je definicija big bang-a:

“Uneven- or irregular-interval firing has been employed in racing engines—the so-called ‘Big Bang,’ with more than one cylinder firing simultaneously,” Furusawa Masao explained.

 

Kao kod NSR 500 ili V5 RCV koja je nekoliko sezona koristila big bang pa u zavisnosti od promena pravilia zapremeni, guma, menjala konfiguraciju.

 

Ima dosta dezinformacija na webu (uglavnom slucajnih i iz neznanja) a ima i namernih, jer su ipak u pitanju takmicenja te zbog toga ima i dosta pogresnih tumacenja.

 

Navodno je 2005-2006 Yamaha Virgin britanskog superbike sampionata u par navrata testirala nekoliko kofiguracija "Big Bang":

 

                     1. "The 'Big-Bang' Superbike engine is nothing new but, although extensively tested, it has never previously been raced due to the problems caused by the two big power pulses produced. These two 'Big-Bang' pulses, within a four-cylinder engine, create a tremendous amount of stress, often leading to failure within 30 minutes."

 

                   2. Instead of firing the cylinders in two groups of two, Crash.net believes the Virgin Yamaha team fire one cylinder on its own first, then two cylinders together, and then the fourth and final cylinder on its own. This effectively reduces the amount of stress on the engine by half.

Analysis of audio recordings of the Virgin Yamaha 'Big-Bang' engine showed three distinctive 'bangs': One bang, followed by a second - even bigger - bang, and then another smaller bang. The audio waves the engine pulses produce can be seen in the lower picture:
130089.jpg.72959f9b588c23046314b70ce62f518f.jpg

 

"My engineering head tells me that this makes perfect sense," commented Smart on the evidence presented to him. "The firing of the single cylinder before the two together sets up the stressed members so when it (the two cylinders together) does come, it is not such a big shock."

 

BSB Suzuki:

There is also a massive increase in stress on the camshafts, as Rizla Suzuki's Scott Smart - well versed in the technical aspects of race engineering - describes:

"When we tried it ('Big-Bang') with a GSX-R600 K1 years ago, the force on the cams of opening two sets of inlet valves at the same time, with no help from the closing of another set, was simply too much strain on the cam chain," he said. The failure in the cam chain arises when the cam-shaft tries to open two-cylinders worth of inlet valves simultaneously, the force from the valve springs being simply too great to overcome for long periods.

 


Sto se tice civilne verzije R1 posle 2009 (i uglavnom na svim verzijama takmicarske M1), redosled paljenja cilindara je nepravilan 270-180-90-180:
 

 

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  • Zainteresovan, 719 postova
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Sa jamahinog sajta:

 

Mounting a crossplane crankshaft, 4-valve engine The development aims for the 2004 M1 were to achieve more linear throttle response while achieving both improved handling performance and stability with a chassis layout better suited to the in-line-4 engine. Engine development focused on the by the crossplane crankshaft function (uneven firing interval) and further maturation of the idling control system ICS (idling control system) to achieve a natural engine brake effect. The combustion chamber was a new 4-valve type that was chosen for its potential to maximize the performance of the FI system. There was also further development of the EMS. While the previous year's model had performed on the basis of calculations from a pre-programmed control map, the OWP3 added to the mapped control a feedback type control system that reflected information on actual running conditions at any given time. The geometry of the frame was optimized with priority on stability. The rear arm was lengthened and the position of the engine was effectively moved forward. To help ensure stable suspension performance regardless of the changes in G forces coming to bear on the machine in the lateral direction during cornering, the relative rigidity in the lateral direction was reduced. This is the machine that V. Rossi rode to win his first MotoGP title with Yamaha.

 

pic_wpaper_yzr_m1_0wp3_01_1680x1050.thumb.jpg.31123d9324b5b14a1449d3a82282e01e.jpg

 

 

 

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  • Vozim motor, nisam BAJKER, 836 postova
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Hahaha, Shone-San i njegove reakcije na odvrtanje gasa...radio je rivju moje Hayabuse, dogovaramo se odavno da odradi i 12-icu al nikako da nadjem vremena...

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  • Svrati ponekad, 257 postova
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To sam i ja primetio da mu je svaki motor odlican kad odvrne gas, predlozi mu da uradi revju mog tricity-a da ga smorimo malo :)

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  • Vozim motor, nisam BAJKER, 836 postova
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pre 21 minuta, Sharky - Alex je napisao:

To sam i ja primetio da mu je svaki motor odlican kad odvrne gas, predlozi mu da uradi revju mog tricity-a da ga smorimo malo :)

Recicu mu, ako ga nije imao na testu, hoce sigurno.

Odgledaj rivju Buse da ga cujes kad doda gas....Miiiikaaaanaaaaa!!!!:lol3:

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  • Zainteresovan, 719 postova
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In 1991, significant changes were made to regulations that opened the path to new opportunities. The minimum weight of 500cc bikes was raised by 15 kilos to 130 kilos. This extra weight went into reinforcing the most fragile parts of the bike. The gearbox was improved and strengthened, thus eliminating one of the disadvantages of the new firing order. That's when Honda decided to put its new concept into practice by retaining its single crankshaft engine but employing the new firing order. And like that, the Big Bang was born.

 

In 1992, the new Honda NSR 500 had an engine with a new crankshaft placement, with the four cylinders firing simultaneously at 70º. In this way, although the rear wheel takes on a heavy load with the four cylinders firing at once, there was 290º left to recover; whereas with the "traditional" firing order, firing two-by-two every 180º, the tire suffered less load but was systematically worn.

 

The best advantage to this new engine, with its distinguishable "popping" sound that gave it the name "Big Bang", was that the tires performed better in racing distances. Wayne Gardner seemed to adapt well to the new concept, whereas Mick Doohan was faster with the former engine, but he realized that the undoubted advantages of the new engine in terms of tire performance made it superior.

 

Initially, only three riders had the new engine: Gardner, Doohan, and the young amateur Alex Crivillé, although Garnder was injured in the inaugural test in Suzuka and again on his return in Mugello. So when he was finally in shape to race again, it was already the seventh race of the season in Hockenheim, and the weight of the team fell on Doohan. And he did not disappoint. He won outright the first four races of the season. The Honda Big Bang was superior, and it even turned out effective in novice Crivillé's hands, who in his third 500cc race in Shah Alam, finished on the podium, after Doohan and Rainey, with much more experienced riders finishing long after him. And in his eighth race, the day Doohan was injured, Crivillé won his first GP in 500cc.

 

Honda had achieved an engine that improved driving and made handling the wild Honda NSR 500 easy, which already at the time was at around 170 CV of power. The '92 season was marked by Doohan's serious accident in Holland, which left him out for the rest of the season, although he ended up reappearing in the last two races in an attempt to gain some traction, but it wasn't enough to keep the title from going to Wayne Rainey.

 

The other manufacturers quickly understood that they needed an engine like Honda's. By analyzing the harsh sound waves from the NSR's engine with an oscilloscope, they discovered the secret. Suzuki was the first to develop its Big Bang engine, which it presented at Hockenheim. Cagiva premiered it at the next race in Assen. And Yamaha a race later, in Hungaroring. The 1992 World Championship concluded with the four manufacturers applying the Big Bang concept to their engines.

 

The Big Bang had a democratizing effect on the 500cc World Championship. Until its appearance, the World Championship categories were clearly classed: there were riders with large-displacement bikes and riders with small-displacement bikes. But with the Big Bang, you no longer needed to have experience in skid control. Any rider from the lower categories could easily adapt to the 500cc without suffering terrible falls due to a loss of traction, violent highsides, the whiplash suffered by 500cc riders. They would still be spectacular and powerful motorcycles, but now they were easier to ride.

 

Honda_NSR500_engine_front_Honda_Collection_Hall.thumb.jpg.c1b4dc554244bdf7e07888486299732e.jpg

1997 Honda NSR500

 

 

 

 

 

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